#mochat 184 - Ripoff vs Inspiration

  1. Evening Everyone. Welcome to #Mochat! I’m joining you tas the newest #Mochat admin, and tonight is a big one.
  2. Tonight we’re talking about The difference between Homage and Theft. The line between Inspiration and Ripoff. #Mochat
  3. If you’re new to #Mochat, Check out  http://mochat.xyz/about  . Don’t forget to use the #mochat hashtag so everyone can see your tweets!
  4. Looking for an easier way to participate in tonight’s #Mochat, we always recommend  http://www.tchat.io/rooms/mochat 
  5. Addressing the Elephant: The #Mograph community’s seen a lot of high profile swipes, thefts, and idea lifts recently. Whats happend? #mochat
  6. @pikero24 I think there is a large influx of people just not giving a fuck #mochat
  7. There is a general sentiment that goes something like "I don't need to worry about intellectual property because Internet." #mochat
  8. I think a combination of laziness, inability to steer clients, appropriation attitude, and sometimes subconscious has helped. #mochat
  9. Had someone ask me to swipe images from google just today...like uh, no #mochat
  10. @conigs I agree. I think laziness and people in a "I have the software, I am now a motion designer/creative." #mochat
  11. For me the line is seeing something you like, that agrees with your sense of taste that gives you a direction to take your own work— #mochat
  12. It's just that the internet has made everything "free" or really just easily unlocked. #mochat
  13. A big problem we seem to be seeing is this modern sense of “entitlement” where people take other peoples work and claim it as theirs #mochat
  14. @pikero24 well then when is the crucify #mochat? i should head that up that one @conigs
  15. @yellowdogparty I could argue that just because things are available, doesn't mean you get to steal other people's work. #mochat
  16. Plus it's even often engrained in your heroes. Big studios, at least a few years ago, used to rip songs for reels all the time. #mochat
  17. Are we naming names tonight? Is this going to be like an awards ceremony where someone hands out bronze Copy Awards? #theCopies #mochat
  18. An issue some of us may remember was some kid claiming “it’s on the internet so it isn’t copyrighted” #mochat
  19. its hard, when a client is in love with a particular reference. I find taking they "creative tools" instead of lifting shots. #mochat
  20. @seeinggreene eh, i just got told not to crucify anyone by @pikero24 because he hates fun #mochat
  21. creative tools, I mean they WHY they did that not the HOW #mochat
  22. @pickero24 Definitely, I just mean it's so easy so people think it's allowed, like no one is there saying don't do that. Except us. #mochat
  23. what was it I saw, someone say “I see so many showreels that are 50% VCP tutorials and 50% hiding they are” #mochat
  24. I spent this past week researching font licensing for a project because of copyrights. #mochat
  25. @conigs you can also toss inexperience into the mix. Look at all those reels we've seen with blatant ripoffs. #mochat
  26. @pikero24 @seeinggreene lucky for you I have no interest in making anyone cry at the moment #mochat
  27. after all Picasso said "good artists copy, great artists steal". But I'd relate that back to my creative tools thing #mochat
  28. There’s a lot to talk about here! So lets start at the basics.Where is the line between a copy and homage? What are the differences? #mochat
  29. @jasonpoley I can't stand it when people throw out that line to justify blatant copying and theft. That's not what it means :( #mochat
  30. @caitcadieux @jasonpoley There’s a difference between Picasso stealing and copying someone’s work almost verbatim. #mochat
  31. @MDSienzant @conigs not just the rip offs, but the ones full of non modified tutorials. I hate saying its 'inexperience' when its #mochat
  32. @pikero24 It's also about the connectedness of this community - people are able to find copies that would have flown under the radar #mochat
  33. Hint: if you place your work on top of the "inspirational" piece with a difference filter, and it's mostly black...not doing great. #mochat
  34. @MDSienzant @conigs really just no drive to do something better. that's just lazy #mochat
  35. Copy is when people try to just pass work off that could pass as an original of the person being copied @pikero24 #mochat
  36. @FakeGreenDress so this has always been a problem and only now we're able to see it? #mochat
  37. @caitcadieux @jasonpoley Oh god, yes. People misinterpret that quote all day long...why not steal a car then? idiots. #mochat
  38. @RagingClaw @conigs but when you're starting out, can you even do better? It's the easy way out but I think they go hand in hand. #mochat
  39. @RagingClaw @MDSienzant @conigs I still see tutorials in reels. I made that a point in a tutorial I did for new mograph people. #mochat
  40. @pikero24 Copy is when you make the same thing with minor tweaks and don't credit the original at all. #mochat
  41. @MDSienzant @conigs i disagree. it takes zero effort to use different parameter values in your work when watching a tut #mochat
  42. @Zonaefly at what point have you made enough changes to consider it original? #mochat
  43. @yellowdogparty @MDSienzant @conigs people are not watching for the techniques anymore, they want to replicate #mochat
  44. @pikero24 @caitcadieux (clumsily) trying it link it to the "why/feeling" rather than "how/technique" aspect of taking inspiration. #mochat
  45. @pikero24 @FakeGreenDress definitely think it's helping. Same w artists discovering copies of work in retail stores past couple yrs #mochat
  46. @pikero24 @FakeGreenDress with the amount of eyes out there all the time now, luckily, that stuff is harder to keep hidden #mochat
  47. @RagingClaw @conigs I think we're arguing over a nuance. Is it lazy, yes. But can someone starting out do it bc they're new? Yes. #mochat
  48. @RagingClaw I know! My wife is a teacher. It's those same kids who want to be told exactly what to do without thinking. It's sad. #mochat
  49. @pikero24 I think if you have any influence at all you should credit the original. #mochat
  50. @Zonaefly Playing devil's advocate: Say I do an abstract character piece, would i need to credit picasso? #mochat
  51. @yellowdogparty @RagingClaw Sometimes I need a day like that to just press buttons and not think. Or alcohol. #mochat
  52. Where I used to work, we told the CD about tuts in reels he showed us. They went in the trash, as they should. #mochat
  53. @pikero24 @Zonaefly I think this is one of those things where there's ranges–in this case, you should cop to the influence if asked #mochat
  54. @_five31 @yellowdogparty you are better off with the alcohol in that scenario. it might get you doing drunk awesome stuff #mochat
  55. @pikero24 @Zonaefly since some past issues are people claiming originality in interviews/write ups when clearly not the case #mochat
  56. @pikero24 @Zonaefly I think the ripoffs we get confronted with today have nothing to do with Picasso, so to me that's not relevant. #mochat
  57. @pikero24 That's where it becomes tricky when clients involved. Need to be ready to explain WHY you can't just copy the reference. #mochat
  58. @conigs @pikero24 been there. that is challenging because clients usually just dont care #mochat
  59. @conigs I’ve had a client say “This is what I want, and I’m paying you.” Puts us in an awkward situation #mochat
  60. Hi folks! Trying to catch up on what I've missed. Chatty group today! #mochat
  61. @pikero24 This might spin the convo a bit-why are people afraid of talking to clients and saying no? this goes pricing yourself too. #mochat
  62. @pikero24 I could see that as an intermediate step to study how animals could be rigged… but never should have been shown to client. #mochat
  63. @pikero24 Something to define is are were doing an homage to an approach/style or recreating the same thing. Answer lies there #mochat
  64. @_five31 @pikero24 I would say yes, because the client is the one with the power to pull the work from you #mochat
  65. @pikero24 One response "I'm not comfortable bearing the legal responsibility if the original copyright owner brings a lawsuit." #mochat
  66. @pikero24 @conigs At this point though, that work is purely paycheck work. White-glove. Get your name off it #mochat
  67. @conigs The # of times I had to explain that I can't steal photos from Google Image Search... to people who happily pay for footage! #mochat
  68. @FakeGreenDress @conigs i once worked at a job that straight up encouraged it... yeah you people know what im talking about #mochat
  69. @FakeGreenDress @conigs this is the weirdest thing. I've gotten so many images just randomly pulled from GIS. Whyyy 😞 #mochat
  70. Back in the early-mid 2000's every ad agency wanted a Don Hertzfelt-style commercial. Had to push back a lot on that. #mochat
  71. @MikeOverbeck TL;DR Stealing sucks. Don't do it. No tutorial reels. @RagingClaw wants to crucify someone. And burritos = good. #mochat
  72. @MikeOverbeck Everyone seems to want the Girl Effect lately I find. #mochat
  73. @FakeGreenDress @conigs I find the difficult part of google image search is the advanced search for commercial use is usually wrong. #mochat
  74. It's worth mentioning that Not all of swiping is done with the intention to steal and profit. #mochat
  75. Some people copy to learn new skills. While #mochat were on hiatus this blew up. How does this fit in?  https://twitter.com/kavan_magsoodi/status/748568076359069696 
  76. @pikero24 there is something to be said for “creative minds often converge on the same or similar idea” #mochat
  77. A lot of #dailies copy others to learn skills and break down their techniques. #mochat
  78. @pikero24 That stuff needs to stay on a local hard drive. It's fine to do it. But keep it close the vest. #mochat
  79. @pikero24 And we can't deny that there are design that we observe and follow #mochat
  80. @pikero24 On your own personal time to learn? Great study. Don't post the result looking for #everyday likes. #mochat
  81. @pikero24 this stuff I find fascinating because I've literally never lifted artwork/traced like this (in a professional context) #mochat
  82. @pikero24 I think that's where the link to the original comes in. If you're gonna copy a skill & post the results link to original. #mochat
  83. @MikeOverbeck a generic brief like that could yield unique results w/o ripping off. Hand-drawn, sloppy animation. Sans big spoons #mochat
  84. @MikeOverbeck Long shadows seem to have come and gone, but does that throw doubt onto everyone who made them? #mochat
  85. @pikero24 I mean totally did fair share of that drawing growing up but even copying to learn, why not make your own placeholder art? #mochat
  86. @Zonaefly So for you it’s okay to replicate as long as credit is where credit is due? #mochat
  87. @conigs So if you’re copying to learn you should never post any of it online? #mochat
  88. @pikero24 I would have found it acceptable under the context of linking and crediting every source and calling it 'studying' maybe #mochat
  89. @caitcadieux @pikero24 Same. INever been a thought to flat steal. Try to educate by mimicing on self-projects, never professionally. #mochat
  90. @pikero24 @Zonaefly In general that's okay-ish. I'd rather see people take what they learned from the study and create new work. #mochat
  91. @_five31 @caitcadieux @pikero24 i have A LOT of stuff that will never see the light of day because they were just learning exrcs #mochat
  92. @caitcadieux @pikero24 I’d agree with that, in homage to, certainly not with the intention of it being a professional/paid for work #mochat
  93. @madebyflame @pikero24 even if you spin it as dailies, need to clarify between totally original work and 'studies' of orig work #mochat
  94. @_five31 @caitcadieux @pikero24 Once, I tried to rebuild something @jdashscott did and directly asked him if that's how he did it. #mochat
  95. #mochat what if a corporate client has an art department & feed you the images.. "Like this... but animate it. like make it move on screen."
  96. @conigs @pikero24 it gets assholes like me to crucify you in public.. so if you want that... #mochat
  97. @madebyflame @pikero24 Dailies are a whole other deal where they're a dime a dozen at this point and all look the same #mochat
  98. @madebyflame @pikero24 but if you're gonna exhibit your dailies work, credit all your study sources or just make your own stuff #mochat
  99. @caitcadieux @madebyflame @pikero24 which stucks because when you actualy need something similar all the sudden you're the bad guy #mochat
  100. @madebyflame @caitcadieux At what point does your inspired by @beeple render become something of your own? #mochat
  101. Nobody was complaining about ripping off Stranger than Ficition for 6 years #mochat How many of those did we have to see?
  102. Hesitantly going to say this once… there've been certain major tutorials touting "this is cool, let's learn exactly this." #mochat
  103. I dare say that most of us—myself included—started out by emulating things we like because of inspiration, sometimes copy #mochat
  104. @madebyflame @caitcadieux @pikero24 @beeple i have something that really needs one of those style WM backgrounds but ill never do it #mochat
  105. @pikero24 It does depend. Like we replicate master paintings to learn from them, so I guess as long as it's for education. #mochat
  106. @conigs @friedpixels yeah I think that was one of the common grumbles I heard when I was first starting out! Ah, memories #mochat
  107. but the difference is, we start out that way to learn, as we should, copy those we believe to be a “master” #mochat
  108. @caitcadieux @conigs @friedpixels are we in for a bunch of Stranger Things titles? How do we deal with that? #mochat
  109. eventually—one would hope—taking that in a totally different direction because of your own developed style and understanding. #mochat
  110. @Zonaefly @pikero24 key thing there is that we call em master /studies/ + don't instagram them saying "orig work, check my process!" #mochat
  111. what about when you make something that ends up similar to another piece that you have never seen but get blamed for stealing? #mochat
  112. even something that is seen as a complete and blatant copy will still be different in one way or another #mochat
  113. @madebyflame this is a GREAT point. People will recognize universal influences and understand what you're trying to do #mochat
  114. just playing the devils advocate here, but it happened to me with some stupid shit. #mochat
  115. but personally, I would push things in different directions until it is barely recognisable but the inspiration remains #mochat
  116. @RagingClaw The downside. Similarities are one thing and happen subconsciously all the time. #mochat
  117. @pikero24 for sure, I saw this, and it is clearly a lazy copy, easily recognisable style with less effort put into it #mochat
  118. @conigs @RagingClaw yeah, this is unavoidable imo. Hopefully can be handled on a case by case basis #mochat
  119. @madebyflame Agreed. Isn't this how most of us grow through inspiration. "Man I really like that. Let me try it my way." #mochat
  120. @Zonaefly @pikero24 Boom! This. Take pride in inspiration, illuminate it to others. Add to the artistic conversation. Don't steal. #mochat
  121. It's easy for people to say "just say no" but others need jobs / cash flow, it's a tough subject. it's good it's being talked about #mochat
  122. @caitcadieux @conigs yeah. for me, it was just playing around with shit ripping off the death star trench but peeps 1/2 #mochat
  123. @caitcadieux @conigs insisted i was just trying to rip off and claim ownership of the octane benchmark scene, which i had never seen #mochat
  124. I’d say if you’re going to copy someone else’s work in order to *learn*, credit the original works. Professional use is unacceptable #mochat
  125. @Zonaefly I’m cool with it, because it’s made by a fan for other fans, not intentionally for profit. At least is my understanding. #mochat
  126. The phrase 'Great minds think alike' didn't come from nowhere, people cross similar things, or world is filled with art #mochat
  127. How do you stop your influences and references from becoming too much of an influence? #mochat
  128. @pikero24 Whenever possible, I try not to draw on ot her mograph for inspiration. #mochat
  129. @pikero24 Look at work outside mograph, get off of vimeo during ideation. #mochat
  130. Everyday millions of new things are created with or without awareness of each other, things might look similar, but don't rip. :) #mochat
  131. @conigs @pikero24 this this! Use inspiration from non-mograph sources. It's a huge part of that. #mochat
  132. @madebyflame what if you're not art directing? #mochat what if you're just asked (directed) to build?
  133. @caitcadieux @conigs @seeinggreene Clients can bringmograph reference saying “can you make something like this?” Unavoidable #mochat
  134. @pikero24 this nails the creative process. Explore the world of the problem in front of you and use that for your solutions #mochat
  135. @osmFCPX then surely you’re emulating the original work, with permission and intention and therefore isn’t stealing/swiping. #mochat
  136. @pikero24 @caitcadieux @conigs I'd try to lead the conversation in a new direction in that case, make it clear it's something new. #mochat
  137. @pikero24 @caitcadieux @seeinggreene Start a deeper discussion. Ask what in particular they like. It's not always the whole piece. #mochat
  138. @pikero24 @caitcadieux @seeinggreene Sometimes it's color, movement, playfulness/sharpness. Use that to build and go new direction. #mochat
  139. @friedpixels don’t forget to use the #mochat hashtag! This is an awesome comment and everyone should see! ;)
  140. @caitcadieux I second this. Not to sound like a plug, but @Divisionzero5’s snapdragon as so much good going for it #mochat
  141. it is important also to be aware of the context of things, understand the difference between inspired by and blatant swipe #mochat
  142. Also have to understand some agencies don't live and breathe mograph like us, they might not know something is played out #mochat
  143. @friedpixels this is a good point and something I tend to forget with non-mograph folks, haha! #mochat
  144. @caitcadieux @friedpixels How do you steer someone otherwise oblivious in the right direction? #mochat
  145. @pikero24 but again aren’t remixes—typically—done with the original artists knowledge/consent #mochat
  146. @pikero24 Makes me glad not to be in the music industry. Just 12 notes. We have millions of everything. #mochat
  147. @pikero24 Remixes have their place & often draw on collective cultural awareness to bring a sense of familiarity. This wasn't that. #mochat
  148. @pikero24 The idea of "sampling" in the music industry has similar nuances and pitfalls. #mochat
  149. @madebyflame @conigs This just an example, but my question still stands. when does a remix stop being theft and become original? #mochat
  150. @pikero24 @madebyflame I'd argue that wasn't a remix. It was sampling. Sampling works in moderation, not the entirety of the piece. #mochat
  151. Just going to jump over to this before #mochat is over and try and end with a happy tweet. If you haven't, come sign up for this game!
  152. We're down to the last 5 minutes for this week's #Mochat. Anything you want to bring up or anything we might have missed? #mochat
  153. @conigs @pikero24 @madebyflame Yeah I don't think there is a direct equivalent of sampling in mograph... it wouldn't be tolerated. #mochat
  154. @pikero24 @madebyflame And it works because of that familiarity. "Oh, hell yes, that thing I know in a new way!" Again, not it. #mochat
  155. @pikero24 @caitcadieux patience, examples, and reminding them they hired you for your work and experience to guide them #mochat
  156. @conigs @pikero24 @madebyflame kind of like Fair Use rules. Unless it's transformative in some way, it's a no go #mochat
  157. @conigs @pikero24 and again I’m sure that even with sampled works, the original artist is presumably aware. #mochat
  158. Once again, use the difference blend mode if you're not sure. #mochat
  159. @caitcadieux @pikero24 @madebyflame Right. This was "look at these clips to music." That's a collection, not new work. #mochat
  160. Hahaha....Idk why this didn't come up but I totally thought about snapchat vs IG stories. #mochat
  161. Think it's important to remember it everyone has the same knowledge / education on the subject, enlighten and teach, don't just hate #mochat
  162. @friedpixels On the internet, this advice is golden, but often falls on deaf ears. Good stuff! #mochat
  163. @pikero24 There's a related odd sense of entitlement to others' techniques. I even get "tut pls" comments on What's New in AE videos #mochat
  164. @pikero24 @Zonaefly So IG totally copied Snapchat but didn't use any of the same code from what I know. #mochat
  165. @FakeGreenDress That’s crazy, but this is the internet, so it sadly makes sense. #mochat
  166. That’s it for tonight’s #mochat about Inspiration vs Ripoff. Hope you all enjoyed my first chat!