#mochat 162 - Keyframes or Simulations?

  1. Welcome to #mochat everyone! Tonight we’re talking about key framing vs simulations.
  2. If you’re new to the chat, you can learn more at  http://mochat.xyz  Just remember to include the #mochat hashtag.
  3. @conigs Hola. Before we get started, can you explain what we're talking about? 'Cause I'm confused. #mochat
  4. @Zonaefly Sure! We’re talking about hand keyframe animating vs running a simulation (like Newton or MoDynamics in C4D). #mochat
  5. Sometimes when you see motion design, it can be hard to tell if something was keyframed or a simulation. Anyone have an example? #mochat
  6. @conigs Ohhh....okay. That makes a little more sense. I still don't know what a simulation is, but keyframe animating helps a bit. #mochat
  7. @Zonaefly @conigs basically you can set everything up and hit play, and it'll figure out everything out. - control + realism #mochat
  8. I have zero experience with simulation (well, give or take) so this is an awesome topic! #mochat
  9. @pikero24 @Zonaefly @conigs Pixar uses simulation for hair, for like Sully in Monsters's Inc. Saves on time to simulate #mochat
  10. I'm always impressed by super smooth hand keyframed animation #mochat
  11. A better place to start might be talking about what types of animation are suited for simulation? #mochat
  12. @Pojemotion I love seeing someone asked if something is simmed, only to be told it's all keyframes. #mochat
  13. @conigs School of Fish, stuff that is going to be a group of something. Things that would take too long to do by hand #mochat
  14. @conigs yeah everybody thinks sims are an easy way out. I often find them more time consuming trying to get everything working right #mochat
  15. @conigs I find that certain motions and transitions lend themselves to simulations than others #mochat
  16. @Pojemotion @conigs It may not be easier,but it might a better way to approach something, not without challenges for sure #mochat
  17. @Pojemotion @conigs You gain a certain complexity of motion and lose control unless you take the time to tweak the parameters. #mochat
  18. @conigs I've never used simulation for 2D motion graphics. Only in 3D software. #mochat
  19. @Pojemotion What were some things you've tried to simulate but couldn't get working? #mochat
  20. I'm a sim man #mochat granted I do have intimate knowledge in the workings of particles. #intimateparticles
  21. @JackSabbath2D @conigs I'm guilty of using expressions and such because I don't want to keyframed it. #mochat
  22. @darthcasey It is a bit crazy when you know exactly what to set up to get a sim and it works… then endless tweaking. #mochat
  23. @Pojemotion @JackSabbath2D @conigs Expressions yes. Especially the inertial bounce. Often a crutch of mine. #mochat
  24. @conigs @Pojemotion physics based stuff mostly. Newton is awesome, but I have issues with it #mochat
  25. @Zonaefly @imprevade @Pojemotion @JackSabbath2D Some calculations can be like bouncing or overshoot, but generally not really a sim. #mochat
  26. @Pojemotion @imprevade @JackSabbath2D @conigs I find those kind of expressions kinda overkill. just as easy to add 2 overshoot keys #mochat
  27. @Zonaefly @imprevade @Pojemotion @JackSabbath2D an easy way to distinguish sims is you push play. then you like it or not. done. #mochat
  28. I do lots of simulation #mochat . What're we talking about?
  29. @xHisDudenessx Right now the types of animation well suited for simulation. #mochat
  30. @Pojemotion @conigs @darthcasey I think key framing secondary animation can be fine and a look, but I will sim everything else #mochat
  31. @pikero24 @Pojemotion @JackSabbath2D @conigs I always crank down the settings & add and ease key frame, so the movements are subtle. #mochat
  32. @conigs cloth, hair, particles, etc. But I often plus stuff with some hand animated business on top #mochat
  33. @darthcasey @Pojemotion @conigs I've keyframed small stuff breaking or very specific denting etc but def break-even point #mochat
  34. Now that I think about it, I mostly only do keyframing. #mochat
  35. @hypercubexl @Pojemotion @conigs @darthcasey AE = keyframes and expressions, C4D ..... sim it all and let god sort it out #mochat
  36. @hypercubexl @darthcasey @Pojemotion @conigs Simulate the things that would be a bitch to do with keyframes.Things breaking, hair... #mochat
  37. 3D motion design definitely seems to lean more sim and 2D to keyframes… generally. #mochat
  38. This conversation is reminding me that I still have nary the faintest inkling how to use expresso #mochat
  39. So 2D designers… why don't you run sims as much? #mochat
  40. @pikero24 @darthcasey @Pojemotion @conigs also helps that computers and sims are 1000x faster than before, can 'casually' sim more #mochat
  41. @conigs depends on the need ... rigs and mograph in 3d usually require both .... but a world without keyframes, can't imagine it #mochat
  42. @conigs aside from Newton, what else is there for simulations for 2D? #mochat
  43. @conigs @caitcadieux So scared to dabble into it... It looks confusing. I'm sure it's simpler than it looks. #mochat
  44. Here's a kicker… is Inverse Kinematics (IK) considered a sim? #mochat
  45. Simulation is cool, but often the iteration time is so slow, that keyframing is easier for the last couple % vs re-simming. #mochat
  46. @imjohnflores_ @conigs I've made a few cursory attempts and been totally foiled. But it does look fun! I accept this challenge #mochat
  47. @imjohnflores_ @caitcadieux It is. Start by using "Set Diver" and "Set Driven" on some parameters. #mochat
  48. @Pojemotion @conigs TFD? that's really kinda the entire list, no? are you counting things like particular? #mochat
  49. @caitcadieux @conigs I'll try it one day for sure. Still learning about expressions in AE @_@ #mochat
  50. @imjohnflores_ @caitcadieux Also a lot of fun to play with. I don't think I have a project that doesn't use expressions. #mochat
  51. I use Particular consistently - which is a sort of sim. Mainly it’s about lack of reliable software for 2D sims/easier to keyframe #mochat
  52. And 3D designers… why the aversion to keyframes? #mochat
  53. @Pojemotion @pikero24 @conigs then I bet every single person on #mochat does that kind of sim..I guess that vs. hand shaped smoke or fire?
  54. @darthcasey @imjohnflores_ @conigs yeah expressions still get my goat a lot but are a hell of a lot of fun. Gotta dive in w xpresso! #mochat
  55. @conigs I think 3D lens itself to a lot of detail and 'realism' whereas 2D lends itself to stylization and suspension of disbelief #mochat
  56. I am still improving in the expression arena. I have dabbled a little bit with waveforms and expressions #mochat
  57. @hypercubexl @Pojemotion @conigs 2d people use stock footage a lot. you can tweak action essentials to do quite a bit. #mochat
  58. @conigs how did the topic of simulations become expressions and expresso haha? #mochat
  59. @conigs in this do you mean not throwing enough keys on something and relying on interpolation too much? #mochat
  60. @hypercubexl Generally yeah. I hear a lot in 3D areas about wanting to avoid keyframes. #mochat
  61. @imjohnflores_ @Pojemotion @conigs I was right there w you not long ago! Just gotta learn bits/pieces and stringing together #mochat
  62. @conigs @hypercubexl 3D scenes can get complicated fast. AE makes keyframe animation easy. sometimes we forget that #mochat
  63. @pikero24 @Pojemotion @conigs yeah definitely more things to shortcut in straight comping..but I tend to always 3D with comp in mind #mochat
  64. @conigs @hypercubexl The AE timeline makes it SO easy to just get away with keyframing things quickly #mochat
  65. @conigs @hypercubexl as 3D packages go, C4D's the best (IMO) but it's nothing close to the ease of AE #mochat
  66. @pikero24 @conigs 2D or 3D artists can always benefit from working with OG cartoon timing and key methods, the 12 principles, etc. #mochat
  67. Just blew my mind! RT @conigs: @Zonaefly Take a look at  http://www.motionboutique.com/newton/  to get an idea of what a physical simulation can do. #mochat
  68. @pikero24 @conigs there's a lot I like in maya and lightwave but really most have pretty solid graph editors nowadays, no excuses #mochat
  69. Now about combining simulations and keyframes. How do you approach that? #mochat
  70. @pikero24 @conigs I think a lot of AE people doing 3D also get scared away from the graph editors because AE's graph editor sucks so #mochat
  71. @DerekTac @conigs @Zonaefly newton can make cool things, but it's hard to find a usecase day to day animations that make it worth it #mochat
  72. Keyframes for life! (I have hardly any bearings in simulation) #mochat
  73. Newton 2 reminds me of a video game i used to play...the name escapes me...halp! #mochat
  74. @conigs @hypercubexl I love the speed graphs. But if you're not used to reading it it can be daunting and hard to get. #mochat
  75. @pikero24 @conigs @Zonaefly I would pretty much use it to drop letters/words onto a platform. Does $250 justify? :P #mochat
  76. @Pojemotion @pikero24 @conigs I need to kidnap you and make you use other apps' motion graphs, then you'll see the dark side #mochat
  77. Is Newton still in a pop up standalone window thing? I really hate that. I wish it could be all in AE comp window #mochat
  78. Do you guys think Particular is a must-have? I haven't used it. Standalone or Trapcode Suite? #mochat
  79. @pikero24 @conigs I think for me as well I am in and out of so many other apps who don't use that display method, it's a brain thorn #mochat
  80. @conigs Simulations can add a bit of flair to a piece, but it usually has to be backed by quality keyframes #mochat
  81. @seeinggreene definitely. I use it most out of the suite, but price wise is's not much more for the whole suite #mochat
  82. @seeinggreene If you use particles, particular is a must. The improvements and features beyond particle world are incredible #mochat
  83. @seeinggreene The whole suite is a must have. We’ll be talking must have AE tools next week too. #mochat
  84. @Pojemotion It is. It has to be to get all the interactive controls and be able to bake the keyframes. #mochat
  85. @conigs got it. It's not terrible, it's just a personal preference haha. #mochat
  86. @conigs @Pojemotion I understand it, but it’s a simulation. At the end of the day you have to hit play and have it run #mochat
  87. Does anyone know any free sims they suggest for beginners? #mochat
  88. @pikero24 @Pojemotion Right. I was just talking about the necessity of Newton being it's on window and how it saves the sim. #mochat
  89. @Zonaefly CC Particle world is a good one. It does lots of animation for you with some parameters #mochat
  90. @conigs @pikero24 @Pojemotion it's still super cool and I love the idea of it but never needed to use it yet... gotta fix that. #mochat
  91. @caitcadieux @pikero24 @Pojemotion I've used it enough to justify the purchase, but never dug into it as much as I'd like. #mochat
  92. @conigs @pikero24 @Pojemotion even though it makes perfect sense, I was thrown that you couldn't just use AI files or whatever #mochat
  93. @caitcadieux @pikero24 @Pojemotion There's always parenting after the sim has run. Just use shape layers for basic collision shapes. #mochat
  94. In the final minutes of #mochat… What do you wish you knew more of for either keyframes or simulations?
  95. @conigs Both! I want to be a better keyframer ands know more about sims! #mochat
  96. @conigs I'd like to master keyframe interp a bit more, but I'm getting better! #mochat
  97. @conigs I want to know how long the Sims franchise is going to last. #mochat
  98. @seeinggreene @conigs I'd like to play a character in The Sims on a computer animating via simulation with some keyframing #mochat
  99. What I need to learn about keyframes is how to use less of them. #mochat
  100. Thank you for teaching me new things! It's always nice to learn. :D #mochat
  101. Well, that about does it for tonight’s #mochat on keyframing vs simulations.
  102. Be sure to join us for next week’s #mochat on the essential AE Toolbox.
  103. Thanks for coming to to #mochat everyone! No #GoMakeSomething with keyframes or sims!