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Composers, critics and musicians debate the meaning of "musicianship," each deeply invested in different genres and their respective traditions.

  1. tedgioia
    @sethcolterwalls Let's be clear: I didn't "back down" on my claim that the level of musicianship in hiphop falls short of jazz.
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  2. This thread picked up somewhere from a discussion of "Best of 2011" record lists, partly fueled by Seth's philosophizing in the introduction to his list for The Awl.
  3. tedgioia
    @sethcolterwalls I merely agreed to listen with open ears to some recommended hiphop records. I stand by my statements, without exception!
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  4. Ted struck me as being rather cosmopolitan in his taste when he published his list, so it surprised me to see where this conversation led.
  5. sethcolterwalls
    @tedgioia Sure, but your "old dog might learn some new tricks" sign-off suggested the prior, broader statement might be open to revision.
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  6. seatedovation
    @tedgioia What is musicianship here? Composition, instrumental virtuosity, production values? Innovation?
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  7. This tweet had me thinking that the discussion would be broad in scope - sort of a "what is art" discussion that I've made tentative attempts at diving into in my blog.
  8. tedgioia
    @seatedovation Let's start with instrumental virtuosity. Does hiphop match jazz levels? C'mon this isn't a hard question to answer.
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  9. seatedovation
    @tedgioia I mean, there's some hip hop with conventional instruments, but are we talking about vocal virtuosity then?
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  10. tedgioia
    @seatedovation Sure, let's move on to vocal virtuosity. Which hiphopper has the range of Sarah Vaughan, the intonation of Ella, etc.?
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  11. sethcolterwalls
    @tedgioia My list has clues! Taborn's #1, Killer Mike's #7. But I agree(d) with Judd + Nate that you may undervalue skills of MCs/producers.
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  12. There was some discussion of Ted's list on Monday evening between Judd and Nate, which I found after digging deeper into the past timeline.
  13. tedgioia
    @sethcolterwalls I spent 10,000 hours at the piano before I made a recording. I know MCs who start gigging the day they buy the equipment.
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  14. juddgreenstein
    @tedgioia you're using the standards of one art form to evaluate practitioners of another. (singing range & functional tonal intonation)
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  15. Said past discussion reveals that Judd's PhD research covers the work of MCs in American hiphop, which he reminds us farther along.
  16. sethcolterwalls
    @tedgioia That IS a lot of hours at the piano. Now: How many have you spent talking to MCs who've spent a similar amount of time performing?
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  17. seatedovation
    @tedgioia I think we're thinking about this the wrong way. Range and intonation are select, conventionally-classical performance skills
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  18. seatedovation
    @tedgioia The musicianship of hiphop artists is, to an extent, that of composers rather than performers: creating new sounds, new rhythmes
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  19. seatedovation
    @tedgioia And as someone who knows a lot more about jazz and classical than hip hop I'm 100% spitballing here
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  20. seatedovation
    @tedgioia But it would be the equivalent of saying that Liszt has better musicianship than Beethoven because he can play the piano better
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  21. natechinen
    Whatever else you say about this back-and-forth btwn @tedgioia, @sethcolterwalls & @juddgreenstein, you've gotta appreciate the candor.
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  22. The peanut gallery chimes in from time to time, but I think that the intense debate between the key players kept others from joining in a more robust conversation.
  23. tedgioia
    @seatedovation You say hiphoppers create new rhythms. You don't think jazz people do that? And at a much greater level of complexity?
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  24. tedgioia
    @seatedovation If you try to define vocal skill, and leave out range and intonation, you are digging yourself into a deep hole.
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  25. seatedovation
    @tedgioia Sure, but I'm not sure that fetishizing complexity is the route to go down. Otherwise why listen to anything but Nancarrow/Braxton
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